Hello, and welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread! In this week’s chapter, we continue on with Kaladin’s heart-wrenching homecoming before he heads off in search of Wascally Woidbringers.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There are no Cosmere connections in this chapter, so read on with no fear of spoilers from non-Stormlight novels. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin Stormblessed
WHERE: Hearthstone, Alethkar
WHEN: 1174.1.2.2
After Kaladin’s (totally deserved) decking of Roshone, he summons Syl to prove his rank and takes a report from the guards about the transformed parshmen, who left the town in peace. He gives Roshone a brief pep talk about leading his people, then Laral arrives. She sets him up with the things he’s requested—a spanreed to report in to Dalinar, some maps—then leaves him to wander through the house. He finds his father and has a sobering discussion with him about war, then reports in to Dalinar via spanreed. His mother introduces him to his baby brother Oroden, and Kaladin inspires the people with an announcement that the Knights Radiant have been refounded.
Threshold of the storm
Titles: A Watcher at the Rim
“You’re a surgeon, Father, but I’m something else. A watcher at the rim.” Words spoken to Dalinar Kholin in a vision. Kaladin stood up. “I will protect those who need it. Today, that means hunting down some Voidbringers.”
Which refers to this, from the Midnight Essence vision:
“Every pasture needs three things,” the woman said, voice changing, as if she were quoting from memory. “Flocks to grow, herdsmen to tend, and watchers at the rim. We of Alethela are those watchers—the warriors who protect and fight. We maintain the terrible arts of killing, then pass them on to others when the Desolation comes. (The Way of Kings, Chapter 19)
Alice: There’s a whole essay in there… but I won’t inflict it on you now! I’ll just note that I personally had never connected these two concepts, but they fit perfectly. Between Desolations, the Knights Radiant mostly withdrew to either Urithiru or Alethela, and kept the Alethi people in training, while others returned to their more peaceful pursuits.
Lyn: Which explains the Alethi societal predisposition towards war.
A: Now, as the Knights Radiant are being re-formed, they are desperately scrambling to catch up to the abandoned task of watching for danger and defending people from it. Interestingly enough, with the blatant exception of the Sadeas army, it will turn out to be the Alethi armies that are needed to protect humanity, supporting the smaller and less well-trained armies of the other nations.
Heralds: Jezrien in all four places. Protecting/Leading; King; Windrunners
A: Well, gotta say that Kaladin is all Windrunner here: The Knights Radiant Have Returned, Y’All, and We Will Lead You!
Icon: Kaladin’s spears-and-banner icon, which Alice still hopes to have explained someday.
Epigraphs:
I did not die.
I experienced something far worse.
A: I assume he’s referring to this:
Dalinar ripped his fingernails off, but the pain of the body couldn’t distract him. It was nothing beside the agony of his soul. Of knowing what he truly was.
Honestly, I can see how in that moment, dying would have been far easier than facing the full truth of all that he had been and done. But we’ll talk about that in… oh, a couple of years.
Stories & Songs
“They looked like Voidbringers, I tell you, with big bony bits jutting from their skin.”
“Weather in turmoil and terrors transformed from common servants? That storm with the red lightning, blowing the wrong direction? The Desolation is here, Roshone. The Voidbringers have returned.”
L: Kal’s sure got a dramatic side. I have to admit I love that about him.
A: Right, that’s all. Admit it, Lyn, you love everything about him. Just admit it.
L: Gladly. Kaladin is a treasure.
A: But, okay, yes, I love his dramatic flair as well. It makes for some fist-pumping moments, for sure.
On another note, though, how did Aric know that they looked like Voidbringers? I can’t believe they heard anything about Narak here yet, so that leaves two probabilities. One, they’ve heard descriptions of the Parshendi warriors by now, and he made an amazingly quick connection based on Kaladin’s news. Two, and the one I think is more likely, they looked terrifying to someone who’s never seen Parshendi in anything other than slave form, and he connected them to the bogeyman from the old stories.
Relationships & Romances
“That was only payment for a little unsettled debt between Roshone and me.”
L: You mean Roshone and MOASH (who totally doesn’t deserve you standing up for him, Kaladin).
A: I must not have noticed this on the beta, and no one else commented on it, but there’s a slight difference between “that was for Moash” and “an unsettled debt between Roshone and me.” Now I wonder whether that was a slip, or whether Kaladin is being inconsistent and/or conflating the two issues. I’ll go with “Kaladin was conflating” for the sake of my sanity.
“And what,” Roshone said, “makes you think you can order anyone around, boy?”
Kaladin turned back and swept his arm before him, summoning Syl. A bright, dew-covered Shardblade formed from mist into his hand. He spun the blade and rammed her down into the floor in one smooth motion. He held the grip, feeling his eyes bleed to blue.
Everything grew still. Townspeople froze, gaping. Roshone’s eyes bulged. Curiously, Kaladin’s father just lowered his head and closed his eyes.
“Any other questions?” Kaladin asked.
L: Okay, so aside from the sheer awesomeness that is Kal being a total badass here (and haven’t we all wanted to see this from the moment Roshone sent Tien off to the front lines?), I’d like to talk about poor Lirin’s reaction.
A: Yes, please! I mean, Roshone calling him “boy” and then being confronted with a Shardblade was cool, but Lirin’s reaction was … unexpected.
L: It’s clear that before now, he was aware that Kaladin had become a soldier through and through. But this moment… this is when I think he realizes that he’s never getting his son back. Not the one he expected, anyway.
A: I have to interject here that the short scene where Kaladin stands in as Lirin’s assistant was bittersweet; it was a moment where Lirin could pretend, however briefly, that his son could be the great surgeon he’d wanted. ::sniffle::
L: It must be a sad moment for him—the moment a father comes to accept that the sweet boy he knew is gone, replaced by this strange soldier. And, from Lirin’s point of view… a murderer. He verifies this later:
“What you’ve become, Lirin continued, “is a killer. You solve problems with the fist and the sword.”
L: I get what Lirin’s saying. I really do. In a perfect world, no one would need to kill. But I have to admit I find him a little naive, too. Roshar isn’t a perfect world, and killing is sometimes necessary in order to save others. I’m with Kaladin on this one. Look for another way, but be prepared to do what needs to be done to protect the innocent.
“And you honestly think that we shouldn’t fight the Voidbringers, father?”
Lirin hesitated. “No,” he whispered. “I know that war is inevitable. I just didn’t want you to have to be a part of it. I’ve seen what it does to men. War flays their souls, and those are wounds I can’t heal.”
L: Lirin breaks my heart here. He realizes that his ideals can’t be held by everyone… he just wanted better for his son. And who can blame him?
A: Not me. Not me.
“I dreamed of coming back,” Kaladin said, stopping in the hallway outside the library. “I imagined returning here a war hero and challenging Roshone. I wanted to save you, Laral.”
L: This makes me cringe. Oh, Kal. It’s a totally understandable sentiment to have, but saying it out loud is just… so childish. Sometimes, with all Kal has been through, it’s hard to remember that he’s only, what? 18? 19?
A: (He turned 20 while running bridges for Sadeas.)
L: Laral, on the other hand, seems to have matured quite a lot in their time apart.
A: Stunningly so, IMO. This was not at all how I expected her to grow up! I do love it, and her reaction to Kaladin’s wish to “save her” was priceless. I mean, I understand that he thought her situation was terrible for her—stuck marrying a disgusting man two or three times her age, and all that, but it was presumptuous of him to think that she would welcome his “rescue.”
That said, I have mixed feelings about her. I felt sorry for Laral back in TWoK when we last saw her, and over all I’m glad for her that she became a strong person and a leader in her hometown. I love that she opened the mansion to shelter her people. I respect that she puts Kaladin in his place with his attitude toward her relationship with her husband; that decision was never any of his business unless she chose to come to him for aid. But while she did say she “was sorry to hear the news of your brother,” she doesn’t in the least acknowledge that Roshone’s action was almost certainly the cause of Tien’s death. I guess… I can appreciate that she doesn’t approve of Kaladin’s behavior this day, and I agree that it was inappropriate. But “your father criticized him!” doesn’t justify sending Tien to a near-certain death, either. ::sigh:: I just have to tell myself that she never got the chance to see Lirin’s initial overtures and Roshone’s sneering responses, and from the day he arrived she only heard his side of the story.
But I’d still like to know exactly why Syl likes her.
L: Probably just because she doesn’t back down. Syl’s awfully independent.
“Kaladin, meet your brother.”
Kaladin reached out. His mother let him take the little boy, hold him in hands which seemed too rough to be touching such soft skin. Kaladin trembled, then pulled the child tight against him. Memories of this place had not broken him, and seeing his parents had not overwhelmed him, but this…
He could not stop the tears.
L: ::screams and cries simultaneously:: I CAN’T EVEN WITH THIS PLOT TWIST. Alice, you’re gonna have to talk about this because I can’t even formulate words.
A: Yeah, about that… ::takes a deep breath:: Okay.
This was an absolute stunner. Not because it’s so far-fetched, really – I mean, why shouldn’t they have another child? – but because it simply never occurred to me. Never. I occasionally thought about their grief, but I didn’t even consider that real people, in that situation, would grieve and go on living. If Laral’s maturity was a mild shock, this was a thunderbolt.
L: Not to mention the fact that this is an extreme outlier in the genre. Usually the main character in fantasy novels is an orphan. It’s exceptionally rare that we see a character with parents who are alive—much less ones who have had another child.
“Oroden. Child of peace.”
A: The name is simultaneously perfect, and ironic. To the best of their knowledge, Lirin and Hesina had lost two sons to war; is it any wonder that they deliberately named this one something opposite? (I have to wonder what the timing was for the arrival of the message that Kaladin had died, and the birth & naming of Oroden.) It’s such a perfect parallel, that Kaladin the (now confirmed) soldier is committed to protecting Oroden, child of peace. I can only conclude that Oroden will play a role in the second arc; the only question is whether he’ll fulfill his name, or twist it inside out somehow.
For now, though, I’m just happy that Kaladin has a new brother to love and protect.
L: ::sniffle::
Bruised & Broken
For a short time, it had been nice to just be Kal again. Fortunately, he wasn’t that youth any longer. He was a new person—and for the first time in a long, long while, he was happy with that person.
A: Well, it didn’t last the book, but it was sure nice to see this evidence that he is capable of being happy to be himself. Despite some fan hopes that he was done brooding, we know from real life that depression isn’t that readily overcome. We also know that healing can come, and it often starts with the occasional moment like this—a moment of unexpected contentment. I have hope that there will be more.
L: I don’t think Kaladin is ever going to be completely “healed”—clinical depression isn’t fixed so easily, and I doubt that Roshar has the right kinds of medicine to help remedy the chemical imbalance in his brain. But he definitely has the potential to be better than he is usually, especially with the help of the people around him and a new sense of purpose.
Places & Peoples
“I don’t like the idea of swinging you about, smashing you into things. … it doesn’t feel right. You’re a woman, not a weapon.”
“Wait… so this is about me being a girl?”
“No,” Kaladin said immediately, then hesitated. “Maybe.”
L: We’ll be seeing more of this ingrained societal sexism in Kaladin later on, but it’s worth noting that when his attention is drawn to it, he doesn’t double down on it. I love that he’s willing to let his opinion on things like this be swayed. He recognizes that it’s a little silly.
The reason I wanted to talk about this here in “people and Places,” however, is that the power divide between the sexes here in Alethkar is really interesting to me. Women, like Roshone’s wife Laral, have authority and power, just a different type from the men. They hold the reins of communication and knowledge through virtue of being able to read and write. Some might say that this actually makes them more powerful than the men, whose primary focus is waging war.
A: I have a hard time calling this “sexism,” at least given the preponderantly negative implication of the term. There is most definitely a distinction in roles between the sexes, and for some it would naturally be grating. (E.g., if you’re a girl and you want to do swordfighting, you can either become an ardent, or go to a different country, pretty much.) That said, women are hardly powerless, as you note. Each sex has its domain, and power within that domain is virtually absolute.
“I’ve got [a spanreed] to the queen regent in Kholinar, but that one hasn’t been responsive lately.”
L: Mostly just noting this for reference in future events. I wonder just how long she’s been under the Unmade’s thrall.
A: Was it just the queen’s spanreeds that were unresponsive, or all of them in the city? I think the latter was implied at the end of WoR, wasn’t it? If so, was there some reason the spanreeds weren’t being used before the Fused showed up? Or… were the Fused already active in Kholinar before the Everstorm was launched?
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“We should just pretend that punch never happened.”
L: I love that they’re at least competent enough to realize that Kaladin is way out of their league.
“Firstly, I don’t smash into things. I am an elegant and graceful weapon, stupid.”
A: Yeah, Kaladin. Don’t be stupid.
Weighty Words
Hadn’t he sworn to protect even those he didn’t like? Wasn’t the whole point of what he had learned to keep him from doing things like this?
L: I mean, sure, Kal, that’s all noble and all, but… dude deserved it. Surely there must be provisions for knocking people down a peg in those lofty ideals.
He glanced at Syl, and she nodded to him.
Do better.
A: As gratifying as the punch was, I actually like this part better; while Roshone is truly a despicable being, hitting him was pointless and counterproductive. But that wasn’t why I quoted this… I was just thinking how much this foreshadows Dalinar’s next Ideal: “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”
“You,” Kaladin said, “are a cheat, a rat, and a murderer. But as much as I hate it, we don’t have time to oust Alethkar’s ruling class and set up something better. We are under attack by an enemy we do not understand and which we could not have anticipated. So you’re going to have to stand up and lead these people.”
L: If part of the job of a Knight Radiant is to inspire people, Kaladin’s already well on his way to mastering it. Let’s face it, he’s had a lot of practice with Bridge Four and the various groups of slaves he tried to escape with, not to mention his regiments when he was in Amaram’s army.
A: I have to snigger a bit at Kaladin’s probable reaction to the idea of being an inspiration to Roshone. I’ll also admit that I laughed out loud at “You are a cheat, a rat, and a murderer.” Inspiring.
“Highprince Dalinar Kholin,” Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing before his lips, “has refounded the Knights Radiant. And this time, we will not fail you.”
L: CHILLS. This scene… oh man. This is everything I could have wanted from this homecoming scene, and then some. It was beautiful, and such a gratifying fulfillment of expectations.
Meaningful Motivations
“He couldn’t report back to Dalinar until he had the Stormlight to fly home.”
L: Despite saying that he’ll report to Elhokar just last paragraph, he first thinks of reporting to Dalinar. Is this a simple “Dalinar is my commanding officer” mistake, or is this another sign of Dalinar slowly usurping the throne?
A: I think it’s more a matter of context. Dalinar is his commanding officer, the one who gave him permission (and spheres) to go, and the one who commissioned him to find out what was happening in Kholinar if he could. Whatever he learns about the effects of the Everstorm, he’s primed to report to Dalinar about it if he can. The “I’ll tell Elhokar” was only in context of someone specifically asking him to “tell the king” about their food and housing shortage.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
“Some of the old spren have four genders instead of two.”
L: I love this, especially with all of the awakening awareness in our current day and age about gender and sexuality.
“What? Why?”
She poked him in the nose. “Because humans didn’t imagine those ones, silly.”
A: Personally, I like it for the implication that “the old spren” don’t reflect humans. It should be fairly obvious that “four genders” reflects the Listener genders of male, female, malen, and femalen. What’s easy to miss on the first read, I think, is that the old spren reflect Listener genders, while the new(er) ones reflect human genders. It’s either foreshadowing or confirmation, depending on when you guessed that humans were the newcomers, but it should smack you in the face on a reread. (For anyone who doesn’t remember those terms: Listeners were identified as male and female only in mateform; in all the other forms we saw, they were called malen and femalen, and their physical distinctions were much reduced.)
Quality Quotations
- “Will you tell the king?” Aric asked. “… We’ll be starving afore too long, with all these refugees and no food. When the highstorms start coming again, we won’t have half as many homes as we need.” “I’ll tell Elhokar.” But Stormfather, the rest of the kingdom would be just as bad.
- “We’re not powerless,” Kaladin said. “We can and will fight back—but first we need to survive.”
- “I can’t stay. This crisis is bigger than one town, one people, even if it’s my town and my people. I have to rely on you. Almighty preserve us, you’re all we have.”
- That storm was unexpected,” Kaladin said. “How in the world did you know to leave your spheres out?” “Kal,” she said, “it’s not so hard to hang some spheres out once a storm starts blowing!”
A: Bahahahaha! You can tell that Kaladin isn’t used to having responsibility for money, or he’d know that…
- Hearthstone wouldn’t see this much excitement for another hundred years. At least not if Kaladin had any say about it.
Thus endeth the grand homecoming. He didn’t stay long, did he? Now he’s off a-hunting; we’ll rejoin him in a couple of weeks. Next week, we’ll return to Shallan in Urithiru for Chapters 8 and 9, and some weird artwork.
Alice is back to normal after her Comic Con weekend, which is to say, going too many directions at once. Isn’t everyone? She’s still working on that article about the Kaladin album, so keep an eye out for it sometime in the next couple of weeks.
Lyndsey is currently in convention-staffing hell getting ready for Anime Boston at the end of the month, but somehow she’s still managing to keep up with these rereads. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website. (Especially if you like Yuri!!! On Ice, because she and her Victor will be posting a lot of FB updates about that from the con.)
Nicely done once again. As far as Kaladin’s new brother, I’m sorry vulnerable to anything in a story involving babies or young children these last 3.5 years for some reason.
Almost everything I meant to say on this chapter I said in the last reread post–I read ahead and got them confused.
Most of my notes for this chapter were in emoji. About half of them involved hearts. This chapter and the last are one of those parts in a book where I just love everything, and I’m either grinning or tearing up or both.
L: CHILLS. This scene… oh man. This is everything I could have wanted from this homecoming scene, and then some. It was beautiful, and such a gratifying fulfillment of expectations.
Only had time to briefly glance at the article, reading must wait a bit, but this, SO YES. So many good scenes in this chapter, but this gave me chills and made me whoop with joy at the same time. Hesina’s awespren just topped the cake.
Everytime I see TWoK , I think “The Wrath of Khan” … sorry.
About Syl and Laral. My understanding of how Syl sees right and wrong is that it’s very defined by oaths and the like and she can be really quite blind to other aspects. It’s very much a military officer’s type of moral system. Her complete lack of questioning of the broader ethics of the Alethi conflict with the Parshendi (pre-Everstorm) was what made me pick up on it at first. I think that Syl probably would have been fine with Elkohar’s assassination if Kaladin hadn’t made that promise to Dalinar, or at least wouldn’t have been nearly killed by it. Skybreakers and Windrunners are close together on the chart for a reason.
I think Syl likes Laral because she did an honorable thing that she probably didn’t want to do in marrying Roshone, because she was protective of the people in her care at the time, and because she demonstrates leadership. Her obvious lighteyes privilege and her lack of concern for someone she was no longer technically responsible for (her having no input into the decision to conscript Tien or control over what happened to him in the army) doesn’t really register on Syl’s radar as a red flag the way it does on ours.
Does anyone remember the fierce debate in the comment section of the preview chapters when Kaladin decked Roshone? And then this very next chapter pretty much made all that discussion mute (Kaladin did, in fact, realize he couldn’t be doing that kind of stuff anymore). It was one of the reasons I didn’t really like them releasing the preview chapters.
If I recall correctly the spanreeds going silent across Roshar suddenly is a later development so I believe Laral commenting on not getting a response from the Queen indicates it is Queen central. Again going off of recollection but I could have sworn the tailors state when the infiltration crew got into the city, that the screaming spren was a recent thing since the Fused besieged the city. Moash’s view points also substantiate this as they coincide with the Fused arriving at Kholinar as he was a part of the group that made the push towards the city.
Ugh at my typo @6. It’s “moot,” not “mute.” I really should create an account…
The analysis on Vorin sexism seems right on the mark. I believe Brandon has said that it was initially a power play to keep women from having shards, which are arguably an even better equalizer between the sexes than firearms are from a martial or self-defense perspective. Even so, the way it did ultimately turn out is surprisingly equal, if still rather stifling for those who don’t conform. There are aspects of it that I actually like better than our own historic gender roles and the results of our attempts to eliminate them, even as someone who would basically have to become an ardent if transported to Alethkar (thankfully I at least have light eyes).
I’ve started to wonder if one of the reasons for Adolin’s historical relationship troubles is of a piece to the romantic problems that some intelligent, confident, high-achieving women have in our society. One thing that’s clear is that while Adolin has never really done anything academic because of his gender, he’s far from stupid. And yet he continually downplays his intelligence, even to Shallan at first. From what I’ve seen of Ialai, Navani, Jasnah, and others, I would bet that many Alethi women, especially women who want to gain status by being associated with Adolin (a lot of the women Adolin has dated probably fall into this category and they wouldn’t be anywhere nearly as clever as someone like Navani), would feel somewhat threatened by a partner who was as smart or smarter than them, particularly because Adolin also does very well on all the traditional Vorin male metrics. They wouldn’t be able to control him at all. Combine that with his greater than average emotional openness (which I attribute to Evi’s parenting) and the sense of honor he’s picked up from his father (which would make scheming difficult) and I think he’d be a very frustrating boyfriend or husband for a lot of Alethi women. Hence Jasnah deciding to toss Shallan (who is bright, a bit naive in Jasnah’s estimation, emotive, has complementary skills, and is strong-willed enough to run over someone non-assertive like Renarin if she isn’t careful—and Shallan doesn’t do careful) at him specifically. She’s also Veden and Jah Keved seems to have somewhat different ideals for women, a little more like our own historic roles. Well, that plus all her strategic concerns; Jasnah wouldn’t dare do something for only one reason, certainly not such an obviously sentimental one.
Re: Kaladin’s depression: I have long been of the belief that Kaladin’s unconsciously using his Stormlight like an antidepressant. Which I believe accounts for his astounding progress starting in TWoK, once he actually started to use his Radiant powers and authority.
Do we have confirmation that Dalinar’s ideal is “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”?
My understanding from the text that his stated ideal was “I am Unity”.
This seems far more in line with his role as a Bondsmith. Additionally it seems to align with Nalan’s discussion on the fifth ideal of the skybreakers – you must become the law. Were these his third and fourth ideals (or third, fourth and fifth ideals – as some on reddit suggest) said back to back?
I got the impression that Dalinar might have leapfrogged (or spoken) a number of oaths to be able to pull the three realms together – I assumed that the shock exhibited by the Stormfather prior to the ‘realm grab’ was some part of this.
@11 Zero_G
Yes we have confirmation from Brandon via WoB that that is his third oath and he is only up to his third oath. I can pull up the WoB for it if you like
Regarding sexism, I also found it interesting the darkeyes prohibition from using swords. This was mirrored in feudal japan, and is what helped bring rise to applying martial arts to previously unthought of weapons such as the hand scythe, and etc. I thought it was cool that Brandon included that in his world
edit: found it anyway, WoB shown below:
Hoidnalsium
Is that one long rejection of Odium, how many Oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the realms? And is “I am Unity” the fifth
Brandon Sanderson
No, that is not an Oath. He swore one ideal in that experience
Hoidonalsium
Okay. how many oaths is he on?
Brandon Sanderson
The number you think. So, he should have just finished three, right? Or maybe four. I’ll have to go look. it’s the number that you think it is. I’m not being sneaky on you. There’s nothing sneaky there. he doesn’t get armor, so I can’t remember where he is….He should be at three. “Life before death” “i will unite instead of divide” I will stand up each time I fall” Yeah, so he’s done three.
@12. scath
I’d quite like a reference to the WoB if you can post it here.
lol I edited my previous post, and then realized you requested it. Just check #12. Glad to help :)
edit: I try not to copy paste WoB anymore because the formatting goes screwy on this page, and sometimes prevents me from posting, so if you want it from the horses mouth persay, just go to the 17th shard, click on arcanum, and search “dalinar oath”. it will be the first one that comes up
@11 & 12
I happened to read that WOB last night. And found it amazing as hell. And it brings up a couple questions. If Dalinar is powerful enough to create a perpendiculary with only his 3rd oath, how much more powerful can he get? Was that power output a one time thing, like the power burst you get when a new oath is spoken or can he just open Perpendicularies at will? Is he stronger than previous Bondsmiths and if so, is it because Honor is dead? Will Dalinar’s 5th oath mean him taking up the Honor Shard?
Apparently I was alone in finding this repetitive and redundant?
Note that “Laral” (like “Ialai”) violates the Vorin “no symmetrical names for girls, they’re too holy” rule.
@Scáth, Brandon has said that he was inspired by East Asian culture for a lot of the SA.
edit:
@15, EvilMonkey: Odium confirms that Dalinar Ascended during the battle. He isn’t just a Bondsmith, he’s a Sliver of Adonalsium.
As for this chapter, I have nothing but love for it. In one chapter he displays everything that makes him such a compelling character in fantasy/sci-fi. Awesome power, the uncanny ability to inspire the masses, motivational speeches, the way he sometimes puts his foot in his mouth in the presence of females and potential love interests, his humanity despite his near god status, his interactions with Syl that resemble fun, cheezy buddy-cop movies, even his constant battles with depression and melancholy. If you liked Kal, this is the chapter you fall in love with him. If you already love him, this chapter amounts to word porn.
Re knowing how Voidbringers look. Alice, I think you got it exactly right. Voidbringers are the common Rosharian version of our boogeyman. They can be different things to different people.
Interesting that Brandon choose to write that Kaladin could feel “his eyes bleed to blue.” I have to believe that is a psychological feeling rather than an actual physical feeling.
I like Laral’s reaction to learning that Kaladin summoned his Slyblade: Being annoyed at him for damaging the hardwood floors in the manor.
Did we ever learn the name of Lirin’s new assistant?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@15 Evilmonkey
So couple of things. First it was not a one time thing. It was commented on in the book that afterwards Dalinar did it once or twice more, though it did strain him so its not something he can do often nor easily. Second the Stormfather was surpised that happened, and a brief discussion between the Stormfather and Dalinar reveal it has nothing to do with him being a bondsmith as an order itself. It has to do with the bond Dalinar has with the Stormfather who is fused with the cogntive shadow of Honor. However, I agree that as the bond with the Stormfather gets stronger, and Dalinar gets more practiced, we could end up seeing more or even greater feats than the perpendicularity. I for one are quite excited to see.
@17 evilmonkey
Lol at the word porn. I agree on all points
@18 AndrewHB
His assistant’s name is Mara
Indeed, it also explains Odium parking the Thrill in Alethkar to keep them particularly fractured and bloodthirsty. And may also be one of the reasons why conquering it ASAP was the highest priority of the Fused. They were seen as a pre-eminent threat.
I had a lot of sympathy for Laral in WoK and she has reasons to have legitimate beef with Kal’s parents, who had schemed to marry her to Kaladin and even had some kind of promise from Wistiow to this end, and then stole from her when this didn’t pan out. Because the fateful 100 diamond broams were actually hers, part of her inheritance, and, as we see in this chapter, a rather significant sum for her. She also could have been harbouring irrational grudges against Lirin for first failing to save her father and then Rillir.
But, her justifying Roshone sending Tien off to a certain death – no “almost” about it for those who knew him as somebody who couldn’t hurt a cremling, as she did, since he was her childhood friend together with Kal, by Lirin’s criticism of a newly appointed lord, was repulsive.
I like her otherwise though, and yea, Kaladin was quite sexist when he made his speech about “standing up and leading” to Roshone alone, when Laral obviously has a much greater potential in this area and even by Vorin norms they are supposed to work together anyway. In fact, her outdoorsy look when she appears strongly hints at her being the de-facto manager of the lands. Kal is quick enough to notice and object to prejudices limiting dark-eyed men like him, but he is quite oblivious towards women being similarly restricted. As we’ll see in a certain later chapter, where he’ll be confronted with it.
Moving on – Hesina must have become pregnant before they heard about Kaladin. I actually expected them to have a new child since finishing WoR for the first time, but I imagined that it would be older. I also thought that they might have moved away after they heard about Kaladin’s “death”, as even Lirin’s stubbornness/nobility and Hesina’s willingness to go along with it must have their limits, but of course Oroden’s age may have played a role in them staying put.
Also, I forgot to mention during previous installments that there is an interesting discrepancy between what Amaram promised Kaladin – i.e. that he’d be proclaimed a deserter, and his parents having been told that he fell in battle instead. I guess those pangs of conscience on his part were real.
Except that you kind of did? Hearthstone is either overrun by the parsh and it’s population enslaved by the end of OB, or they are among the refugees in Herdaz. Hopefully, not those brutalized by Sheler. I was expecting that Kaladin would return home and guide his townspeople to safety, or at least warn them about what was coming, not to mention fetch his family so that nothing terrible could happen to them after this moving reunion, but alas. And it is a really bad idea for the family of a prominent Radiant to be so vulnerable, as it would be such an obvious ploy for the Fused et al. to capture them so that they can blackmail/pressure Kaladin, or kill them in order to unbalance him.
One thing I like about Brandon Sanderson’s works is that his characters are allowed to have the wrong information, and misremember things. It can be confusing, but it makes for more a more active reading experience. Even if it does require the occassional reread. Kaladin’s and Laral’s conversation this chapter is a very interesting example of this.
In the WoK flashbacks we see that Lirin does make a fair attempt at friendliness towards Roshone, which was immediately rebuffed. Surprisingly, rereading those chapters made me feel rather sorry for Lirin. We’re very focused on Kaladin in the flashbacks, because we get everything from his POV, but with some distance, we can see that Wistiow was probably Lirin’s closest friend. They definitely had a friendship close enough that it ignored class divisions, seeing how they used to make fun of weird Lighteyes habits. It actually reminded me a bit of Kaladin’s and Adolin’s friendship, though the personalities of the people involved are of course different.
Anyway, so Wistiow dies, and suddenly Hesina is the only person in town Lirin can really talk to. And then the new citylord comes to town, and immediately a. tells Lirin it’s his fault his friend is dead and b. insults the town Lirin loves so much he doesn’t want to leave it throughout all the events in the flashback chapters.
As a side note, there might be an interesting parallel in how Lirin and Dalinar both have to deal with being rejected by the town/country they loved and fought for (though in different ways). We see the path that Lirin takes, but I wonder what Dalinar will do now, after we see him realize this in the coming few chapters.
Overall, I really don’t feel a lot sympathy for Roshone here, and he probably deserved that punch. On the other hand, I’m very happy that Kaladin realized he should be better than that. I really enjoy that about Kaladin’s story. He’s not perfect, but he’s always willing to examine his own opinions and change them if he figures out they’re wrong or illogical (unless he’s really deep in a depressive spiral, aka part 3-4 of WoR).
On another note, I don’t think Kaladin’s surprise about the working spanreed is not because he’s not used to having responsibility for money. Even people without money in Roshar still have to watch for highstorms so they can get to safety. I think Kaladin has just gotten used to having stormwardens who make accurate lists for when the highstorms will arrive. Stormwardens are relatively new (they became an ‘accepted’ profession during Dalinar’s youth, I think), and before that people just had to watch for storms and react accordingly. So people in rural areas still watch, but the more cultural areas (the Shattered Plains, cities, but probably also the armies) have stopped doing that themselves, which is probably why Kaladin forgot about it. He’s become used to the luxuries of city life. :)
@15 Evil Monkey
I didn’t think Dalinar created the perpendicularity. Weren’t we told it already existed as a floating/random part. That would mean he “simply” anchored it to a place.
@20 Isilel
I think Odium attacked Alethkar first because the Parshmen there would be more inclined to do so (since they seem to take the characteristics of the people in their “homeland”). Neutralizing the Alethi army would be a bonus, but most of them were at the Shattered Plains, so attacking Kholinar wouldn’t have done much to that goal in and of itself.
RE: 4th Oath and Kaladin’s depression
Similar to Dalinar’s oath about learning from his mistakes, I’m pretty sure Kaladin’s oath will take the form of letting go of things he can’t control. Things like Tien’s death, Moash’s betrayal, deaths of people who follow him.
I LOVED this chapter. All 3 times I’ve read it so far. I love seeing Laral’s reaction and seeing her as a grownup, though she doesn’t understand everything that went on between Roshone and Lirin-only Roshone’s side. But Kal has only seen the other side and I like that he gets to see a bigger picture now. Also, Laral’s reaction to him stabbing her floor reminded me of the Hunger Games “that is Mahogany!”, I think of it every time. But it’s not like nice wood for the floor can just be replaced easily either.
Oroden and the idea of him is just so priceless. And unexpected. I hope he grows up to be everything Lirin wanted for Kal. I see big things from him in the second half of the series as well, maybe he could become an edge dancer or a truth watcher so he can focus more on healing than fighting.
Lastly- I wonder if the spren with four genders are all for the Parsh. They technically have 4 genders if male/female is different than malen/femalen… I had originally thought those would be for either Human or Parsh
@21
Except that you kind of did? Hearthstone is either overrun by the parsh and it’s population enslaved by the end of OB, or they are among the refugees in Herdaz. Hopefully, not those brutalized by Sheler. I was expecting that Kaladin would return home and guide his townspeople to safety, or at least warn them about what was coming, not to mention fetch his family so that nothing terrible could happen to them after this moving reunion, but alas. And it is a really bad idea for the family of a prominent Radiant to be so vulnerable, as it would be such an obvious ploy for the Fused et al. to capture them so that they can blackmail/pressure Kaladin, or kill them in order to unbalance him.
1. There was nothing the new Radients could have done to prevent the invasion of Alethkar. Sure the Radients have reformed but at that point in the story that Order only has 4 members. The verdict is still out on whether the Radients failed them. There’s still time to recover what was lost and all that.
2. Kaladin did try to move his family to safety. His dad refused to leave. Plus Kaladin still had a mission to accomplish. He couldn’t put it aside to fix the problems of one small town in Alethcar when the whole country is experiencing similar problems and they know almost nothing about the enemy. Not their goals, methods or even their nature. Him trying to help Hearthstone at this point would be worse than useless. Is Kal’s fam still a target? Sure. We as readers know just how much of one they are but I’m not sure Kaladin does. I don’t think Kaladin knows just how important he is to the endgame yet.
3. Even if we take into consideration the end of OB, the Radients are still understrength as an Order. They had their hands full at Thylen City and are recovering to take back Alethkar. The war is far from over, and as more Radients come out the closet twill be easier for them to conduct that war. Failure is not assured.
Thanks Lyndsey and Alice,
Nice insights, you two. Re: the Epigraph – I remember that this just fueled the fire even more for those who thought OB was written by Jasnah. It is interesting that the actual text associated with this quote is dozens of chapters away.
Re: Lirin and his response to Kaladin’s new status – I respect that he had plans for his son to be a surgeon, but after 5+ years of knowing that Kaladin was a soldier I found his reaction unfortunate and somewhat cruel. Soldiers have to fight, and often kill, if they wish to survive battle. Also, it is rather interesting that Lirin tries to be holier-than-though by stating Kaladin “solve(s) problems with the fist and the sword,” when Lirin attempted to solve one of his problems by stealing from a dying man. Everyone has their flaws…
Re: Laral – For the most part, I respected how she had matured and made the best out of her situation. But like Alice, my main issue is with how Laral tried to equate Lirin’s actions of “disrespect” towards Roshone, with Roshone’s action of consigning Tien to the battlefield, and his likely death. I actually don’t think her opinion of dark-eyes ever really mirrored those of her father; but were more similar to Roshone’s perspective on dark-eyes all along. She was rather interested in finding ways to change Kaladin into a light-eyes, after all.
Re: Oroden – It was great to see Kaladin so moved when he found out about his new baby brother. Like Alice and Lyndsey, I also will be shocked if he doesn’t play some type of role in the second arc, whether Kaladin survives (perish the thought) to that time period or not.
These comments about Kaladin’s family being a potential target are kind of interesting. I hadn’t considered if there were parties interested in them, from a leverage standpoint. Especially since last week there was some discussion about how Hearthstone is marked explicitly on the Map of Alethkar (by Nazh). I wonder if anybody is looking for familial links to these new Knights Radiant to see how their newfound powers can be manipulated.
@26
The Radients depend on Kaladin as founder of the new Windrunners. By the end of OB everyone knows he’s important and is going to do some research on him. He’s definitely on the Ghostbloods radar, he would have been of interest to the Diagram after the foiled attempt on the Blackthorn’s life, the Sons of Honor would have become aware of his importance after the 4 on 1 duel, and Odium and the Fused would be painting a big target on his back after Thalen City even if Moash wasn’t on the team. In fact, the only person who thinks Kaladin isn’t important enough to be targeted for a background check at the very least is Kaladin.
Oroden reminds me a lot of Raoden, and oh if there wasn’t enough Elantrian cameos in this book to have naming conventions be yet another little hinting.
I am interested in how depression and other mental disorders work for Knights Radiant. Theoretically, Stormlight could heal Kaladin of any chemical imbalances. So either his depression doesn’t have a physically component or the healing isn’t working, just like with his slave scar. I believe Brandon said Cosmere healing depends on your cognitive view of yourself so I am guessing he is using this to help explain continued mental issues among our cast. Magical healing would ruin our ability to relate to the characters and their struggles and would be too easy. Also, if a Knight Radiant requires trauma to form the bond, what would happen to the bond if they healed? Is the trauma only required for the bond to form or is it required for maintenance?
Originally, I thought the Recreance had been caused by the Knights Radiant discovering the consequences of the bond. Namely, that while the Spren got more human and aware through the bond, the Knights got more spren like and less mentally flexible, which contributed to mental problems like Nale’s inability to feel emotion. While we learned that wasn’t the cause, I still wonder if there are any consequences to the Knights from the bond, particularly as a counterpoint to the mental benefits Spren gain in the physical realm.
While Highspren and Honorspren are closely related, I think the difference mainly comes down to What is Right vs What is Written. Syl does say she takes her view as what is right from Kaladin, but even within that confines holds closely to the sanctity of Oaths. So in my understanding, Nale can kill proto Knights as long as finds a legal loophole, but an Honorspren would probably see that as wrong since you are trying to kill people. Sure its legal, but your goal is to find a way to kill people. Honorspren are probably able to be reformers. I don’t see any way a Highspren could ever change a bad system. Even if there is a legal way to change the law, what would they use as a basis for change?
I too am really glad Kaladin come to his senses on the punch. Its not the time or place and too petty for what Roshone deserves. Moreover, its ineffective to antagonize your allies during the end of the world, espeically when they will rule over your family and have been shown to be vindictive killers.
I don’t know if Kaladin’s brother will have much an effect in the future. The time jump would have to be pretty severe, sixteen plus years, mostly likely. Since most of the viewpoint character in the back five has already been chosen, and most if not all were split out from the original Way of Kings, I don’t expect too many new characters to have huge roles, especially babies. I think this is one reason Adolin has a lower role in these books. He was created in this iteration of the series and all the main parts had already been handed out.
@@@@@ a lot of people
Yeah I have made my thoughts regarding Kholinar, and Laral clear in prior pages, so I won’t go into that. I feel I have said my piece as well as I could. Suffice it to say I agree with Elle and Evilmonkey
@@@@@29 vulcronos
I do not believe being “broken” is required to maintain the bond. We see with mistborn, the inciting trauma is what creates the cracks. If they flare their metals, they can widen said cracks, but it does not seem that healing from the beating, nor recovering emotionally from it effects their ability to burn metals. So I am of the opinion that whatever issues they had to bring about the cracking of their spiritweb, would not have to be maintained, in order to continue to access the abilities
Personally I disagree regarding Honorspren. All the windrunner would have to believe is that by killing certain individuals, they are protecting other individuals (like Kal killing the parshendi to protect Dalinar and the bridgemen). So technically I would say Windrunners have more wiggle room than Skybreakers
Are we sure Dalinar Ascended, or if he did, is that ascension permanent? I know Odium said as such, but he’s an unreliable narrator, as unreliable as it gets. I’m not saying that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about necessarily (the Shards aren’t omniscient so it’s possible but unlikely). I’m saying he could be lying. He was negotiating with King T when he speaks of Dalinar’s ascension. We know that Dalinar had a status change at Thylen City. I’m just not convinced he became a Sliver. WOB is more reliable. Has anyone asked? I know people have asked what Oath Dalinar obtained. And he isn’t a full 5 Oath Bondsmith. I mean, how can he hold the Honor Shard (basically my understanding of Ascension) if he still isn’t at max power in that magic system?
I think Laral still has the old light-eyes vs.dark-eyes prejudice which colors her view of what happened to Tien. I think she is pretty much totally the power player when it comes to Roshone. The guards look to her for permission to get what Kaladin requests. She only needs Roshone for the expected appearance of a male head of household.
In a way, she has usurped him in the same way Dalinar has usurped the king. The outward appearance of who is in charge is put to the lie by who the people look to for leadership. I seriously doubt their current state is what Roshone expected when he married her.
As for the Honor spren: I think we are meant to see how the strict adherence to an oath can actually be the least honorable action between choices. Lirin’s attitude toward Kaladin as a soldier has to have been part of what breaks him in trying to achieve the 4th oath but it’s also about whose oath you keep when 2 people you should protect are killing each other.
I love how Brandon’s books are as much about the relationships between people as the fantasy. Fathers and sons, mothers and daughters, brothers, buddies, officers and soldiers, men and women. They are all complex interactions that affect the story as much as the magic.
@31:
I found this thread on 17th Shard. Its all speculation and i don’t think there is definitive conclusion or WOB, but its super interesting:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/62367-ob-the-cosmeric-implications-of-oathbringers-ending/
This was one of my favourite chapters in the whole book, from Kal and Lirin’s conversation about war, to Oroden, to Kal’s goosebump-inducing moment of inspiration at the end.
Props to Laral for standing up for Roshone publicly, no matter how she feels about him privately. But I hated how Laral just brushed off what Roshone did to Kal and his family. “Your father criticised him” DOES NOT equate to ‘sending the youngest son to the battlefield to die out of spite.’ Yes, Roshone blames Lirin for not being able to save his son back in TWoK, but only Regrowth would have saved his son at that point, and whose idiotic idea was it to go whitespine hunting anyway?
What’s sad is that there are aspects of Laral’s personality that would be a great match with Kal. She’s strong, pragmatic, a leader, and willing to call Kal out when he’s wrong. But her callousness regarding Tien, and Roshone’s part in that, is unforgivable.
Austin @6 – Heh. I remember well that fierce debate. It was hard not to comment. That is indeed one of the… effects of releasing chapters early: there’s a lot of debate over issues that will be resolved very soon. I’m not sure I’d all it a drawback, though; a lot of people had a lot of fun discussing things without knowing whether or how it issues would be resolved. (Also, @8 – Yes, you should. Absolutely.)
scath @7 – I think you’re probably right about the spanreeds. Laral did say “I’ve got one to the queen regent…” so I expect that at this point, it’s just the ones in the palace that are unresponsive. Whether that’s because she and her court were all wrapped up in their reveling and ignored them, or they were affected by the Unmade there in the palace, it’s probably not because the Fused were attacking them.
Orual @9 – Dalinar agrees with us; in that last chapter, he thinks
Your conjecture about Adolin’s relationship issues is fascinating – I like it a lot! It reminds me of a girl I knew in college; she was brilliant, straight A’s, Physics major, always had half again as many credits as a normal load. But she would never tell anyone what she studied, and she played “dumb blonde” in social situations for all she was worth. She’d discovered that guys were too intimidated to even talk to her, much less ask her out, if they knew the truth, and it just got old.
(Also… did the username come from C. S. Lewis?)
scath @14 – I find the easiest thing to do is to just hyperlink the WoB most of the time. (At least it’s easiest if I’m on my computer. Phone, I’m not so sure.)
Carl @16 – I’m confused. What was “repetitive and redundant” about what you quoted?
Isilel @20 – Whether it was sexist or not depends on your interpretation, but it’s worth noting that, when Kaladin gave Roshone his little pep talk, he hadn’t yet seen Laral. He was still thinking of her as the fragile-looking, hollow-eyed young girl who needed rescuing. Which sort of makes her entrance even funnier, when you think about it. Whoops!
Also, storm it, I’d fully intended to credit you in the write-up for pointing out Laral’s complete failure with regards to Roshone’s responsibility for Tien’s death. My apologies!
vulcronos @29 – “I don’t know if Kaladin’s brother will have much an effect in the future. The time jump would have to be pretty severe, sixteen plus years, mostly likely.” Spot on. Brandon has said, specifically, “After Book 5 of Stormlight we will have a break, in-world, for about fifteen years.” Given that there’s supposed to be about a year break between the end of Oathbringer and the beginning of SA4, add to that the time that will elapse in books 4 and 5, and you have Oroden being 17 or 18 years old at the beginning of book 6.
And now for something completely different – or mostly, relating to last week’s chapters. Remember that bit about
I was listening to the Kaladin album yesterday while driving, and the song “Hearthstone” came on. Talk about a perfect match! If I didn’t know better, I’d think someone had been sneaking in to read over Brandon’s shoulder. There’s a violin solo that fits the “pure voice” motif heartbreakingly well.
This is my favorite chapter in the book, thanks to Oroden, the interactions with Roshone, Laral, and Lirin, and the floating KR speech. Even the title is awesome. I think I had my very own awespren when I first read it.
Regarding Lirin lowering his head when Kaladin summoned the Sylblade, I hope at some point Kaladin explains that he did not have to kill anyone for his Shardblade. It is a living entity, which he achieved by making oaths of protection, and specifically by saving a life. This should calm some of Lirin’s fears that his son has become a stone cold killer.
In fact, I think Lirin would be proud of Kaladin if he knew his whole story. He has killed very few people since the books began. I believe the has only people he has killed onscreen is Helaran, Parshendi at the Tower, and one Fused in Oathbringer. I’m sure he killed people in Amaram’s army, but he had his squad trained primarily for defense, so he probably tried to avoid killing if he could. He only takes a life when absolutely necessary to protect someone. I would love for Lirin to understand this, to know that he did have a strong influence on Kaladin, and that his son is a good man.
Edited to add: I would also love for Lirin to know about Kaladin’s experience in field medicine, and that he spent most of his income for medical supplies to help wounded soldiers. Or his work gathering milk weed and tending the wounded bridgemen. Hopefully they’ll make it Urithiru and someone will tell Lirin all of this, I doubt Kaladin will give the full story.
Okay, who thought that? :) I doubt his brooding is going away any time soon. Kaladin’s brooding is part of who he is, like Jasnah being logical, Shallan telling bad puns, and Lift eating pancakes. It’s part of their uniqueness and charm. If he were to become all happy and positive he would be a different character. We have Lopen and Adolin as the upbeat guys. I personally hope Kaladin never stops being brightlord brooding eyes.
@@@@@ People and Places:
Dalinar comments more than once on this – he’s insecure that there is so much power in words and spanreeds and communication – probably more than in the sword – and he is absolutely powerless in that regard. When Taravangian breaks his coalition using nothing but intel and communication, he recognises that he was right to worry.
Now that Dalinar has learned to read and write, he has become truly powerful.
@34, Wetlandernw: “Carl @16 – I’m confused. What was “repetitive and redundant” about what you quoted?”
I just feel as if both Dalinar and Kaladin seem to be proclaiming the return of the Knights Radiant too often. In this case, it’s happening weeks after Dalinar did that, in fact. They have spanreeds, surely they got the news of the original proclamation (with Amaram)?
Given how much emphasis has been put on the people of Roshar needing to ‘survive’, I wonder how many books more before Kelsier pops up, and whether he’s going to get there by someone ramming a spike through Gaz’s skull. Not that I have a persistent hate-on for the man after his character development, but so far he’s the only one with one eye in the cast. I’ve actually been rereading the book trying to see if there are any other one-eyed people hanging around. Also wondering how the Southerner in the Ghostbloods will react to her Sovereign.
Another great chapter and I want to take the time to state how much I appreciate Laral’s character.
Here is a young girl, living in a far-away rural town, knowing she will be married to a man her father will choose, naively hoping it may be her childhood friend while knowing it wasn’t highly probable due to him being darkeyed. She then crafts some fantasy where he goes soldering, wins a Shardblade and come back home, gloriously, to marry her and take her away from her sorry life. The fact it is practically impossible to win a Shardblade, especially for a darkeyed, just testify how much this was nothing more than the dreams of a teenager girl hoping for her Prince Charming to come and rescue her.
Except Prince Charming never comes, instead he leaves, never to come back. He marriage prospects goes from young Rillir to old Roshone thus cementing what probably was her worst fears: being forced to marry a man twice her age she does not love.
And what does she do? Does she become a victim? Does she lament? Does she hang up on her childish dreams hoping for a magical someone to save her? Does she break?
Nope. She grows up. She makes best with worst. She accepts this marriage she never wanted and focuses on changing what she can change. She takes control of the town and the town is better off this way.
What an amazing turn-over for her character and it makes me sorry we are probably never going to see her again. She’s exactly the kind of female character I usually enjoy reading and it also came to my mind she is basically the anti-Shallan…
Shallan too grew up in a remote rural town. She too expected to be married to an older man she does not love. She too had little contact with the outside world and was rather clustered inside. However, unlike Laral, Shallan gets to be picked by a spren at a ridiculously young age. While her childhood was horrific, she still gets the chance to escape. She become ward to the most acclaimed woman in the entire world. She becomes engaged Alethkar’s most eligible bachelor.
Shallan basically lived Laral’s childhood fantasy. She got to married Prince Charming, but unlike Laral, she is broken and she keeps on breaking more and more. She doesn’t rise up to the occasion, she crumbles. She can’t accept her past.
This chapter made me want more Laral.
@9: By the end of Oathbringer, I do think one of the reasons Adolin struggles so much with relationships (not just with women, but with people in general) might be because he is a fish out of the water. He is an Alethi raised by Alethi, but born out of a Riran mother and it seems he inherited a lot of his mother’s personality. Just like her, he always tries to do his best, to improve, to be what others want him to be.
And I need to say a few words of how incredible it was for Evi, a left-handed woman, to learn how to scribe with her right hand to the extend where other Alethi women started to accept her work. Being left-handed myself, I am astonished.
Hence, Adolin just seems to never really be himself except towards the end, when he openly hugs Shallan and starts to display his affection more openly. Coincidentally, it is also when others start to frown at him and refer to him as a “Westerner”.
This being said, I love your analysis. I do agree, on average, the character has been downplaying his intelligence, just as he pretends he never had any interest into learning anything when it is obvious he actually like this Makabaki book he offers to Shallan…
Gaz @@@@@ 33
I agree with you partly about Laral, that is except that her callousness regarding Tien and Roshone’s part in that being unforgivable.
We have to remember that Laral at that time was also very young. Her fiancé just died. And just like Roshone, she needed someone to blame.
I find Laral also a very strong girl and a strong woman. Her father died when she was barely a teen. Her family is the only lighteyes in their part of Roshar. Her best prospect to marry was Kaladin, who happens to be a darkeyes. Kaladin might be a good looking guy and very intelligent, but socially speaking, he is below Laral.
Not to sound callous, but Laral’s father dying unexpectedly opened doors for Laral. When Roshone and his son came to Heartstone, all of a sudden, there is a lighteyes boy who is of marrying age. All of a sudden, the future looked bright for Laral.
And then the unthinkable happened and Roshone’s son died. Chances are Laral also blamed Lirin. Of course, there was really nothing that Lirin can do. But, Laral and Roshone wanted to strike back. And the rest is history or for us, a big part of TWoK plotline.
Does that make Laral petty? Does that make her vindictive. Perhaps. But, she was barely 15. Can we blame her?
Here’s a thought.. If Lirin gave back the diamond broams, then these things would not have happened.
We seem to give Lirin a lot of leeway on what happened, but he really did steal those spheres.
Lirin and Hessina have their reasons why they did it. But, I can’t help but think that Lirin fell into the trap of a parent trying to live their dreams through their child. Lirin did not train in Kabranth. He trained under someone who did. Maybe his dream of sending to Kaladin to medical training there was Lirin’s dream.
Just my thoughts.
@40 – I understand the part about wanting to blame someone for your fiance’s death. Or your son’s death. Bur Rillir was beyond saving, and it was his and Roshone’s fault for going Whitespine hunting. And sending the son of the surgeon who tried to save your fiance / son to die in war as revenge is so far beyond merely being petty or vindictive, its closer to evil.
@39 – I think Shallan’s history is more horrific than what Laral went through by an order of magnitude. That sort of trauma could take years to get over – or it could even be something you never ‘get over.’ While I was also frustrated at Shallan’s inability to face her issues and further crumbling in OB, she deserves a lot of credit for even getting this far.
Also if Shallan never breaks, then she never bonds Pattern, I guess.
@40: This is just a thought – I also remember Kal thinking that the gems he brought for his flight back to Hearthstone were worth far more than what Lirin and Roshone had been squabbling over. It was apt symbolism for how far Kaladin has risen above small-town politics and Laral’s darkeyes to lighteyes ladder-climbing.
@40: I didn’t mean to be detrimental to Shallan and I do agree what she lived through was orders of magnitude worst than Laral. She’s however constantly been unable to appreciate the good things which did happen to her which are orders of magnitudes better than anything good ever happening to Laral. That’s what I was referring to.
Always fun to see a man discover that the woman he intended to “save” didn’t need or want saving.
I like that Hessina had a baby at age 38-39, because my mom had my younger brother at 39.
@16: Does the ‘symmetrical names are blasphemously arrogant’ rule apply only to girls? I don’t recall reading that, and can’t find it in the reference websites.
@18: I also wonder how changing eye-color “felt.”
@28 I didn’t see that name similarity at all, but now I like it. Brandon didn’t specify who Hessina’s parents are, so one of them could have been a world hopper. Orodin also fits Vorin male naming pretty well, though.
@37 Carl — It is one thing to hear/read over the spanreed that a crazy High Bright Lord is claiming to refound the Knights Radiant. However it is a completely other thing to have someone—FLOATING IN THE AIR, WIELDING A SHARD SPEAR!—telling them the exact same thing.
Which is more epic, and which is more likely to get the point across?
Cheers,
—Guncici
Yowsa, just finished book 3..now must add ketchup here, so I can learn what just happened ::o
Speaking of cross-Cosmere naming, I believe it was mentioned in a previous thread that “Kaladin” means “son of Kalad.” Kalad is of course one of Vasher’s names … (and means “peace” apparently, which would mean Kaladin and Oroden have the same name).
@@@@@39. Gepeto – an excellent summary of Laral’s situation and a mirror of my enjoyment of her character and love for this chapter.
However, I had the opposite thoughts on her similarities to Shallan. I am thinking she is very similar to Shallan. Laral is obviously putting on a mask when she is interacting with Kaladin. She plays the loyal wife and important lighteye role very well.
My guess is she is indeed a very broken young lady who struggles with the grief of losing both her parents and her fiancee and struggles with a marriage of convenience and the duties that are required of her as a leader of a household and village.
I do not imagine Laral has many, if any, friends she can be herself with and share her inmost thoughts. I cannot image how difficult it was for her to fain indifference when her first crush and good friend shows up as the embodiment of her childhood dreams and fantasies. But I admire her sense of duty and loyalty that allows her to do it.
@31 Evilmonkey
I personally believe Dalinar did ascend, but it was brief and not permanent. Might be one day. As to are we sure? I do not believe I have seen any WoB that have confirmed it. I believe he has RAFOed about it. My thing about unreliable narrators, is I feel we have to ask ourselves why they are unreliable, and does that reason for being unreliable inform us as to when they do or do not lie? So in the case of Odium, the times he is unreliable is because he is purposely doing so. This is different than Shallan for instance, because her personal mental issues cause her to be unreliable outside her control. So if we accept Odium is being unreliable for a goal, then we ask what the goal is. His goal in my opinion would be to get himself released, or win the war which would also get him released. So the next question is what would he have to gain in releasing himself or winning the war by having Taravangian believe falsely that Dalinar ascended? Personally I think that would only hurt Odium’s case, because then Taravangian might end up thinking Dalinar could fight off Odium. So in this instance, I personally feel Odium is being genuine.
As to how he could hold the shard, we have seen Vin, Kelsier, and Sazed all hold shards, when they are no where near as invested as Radiants. So I believe as long as one holds a connection towards a shard, they could pick up a shard regardless their “power level”.
@34 Wetlandernw
I haven’t had a chance to yet, but I want to try and write up a timeline regarding the spanreed shutdown and the movements of the fused out of curiosity. I hope to post my results soon! :)
There are some aspects of technology that come easily to me, and others that utterly elude me, so I am going to have to experiment with the Arcanum and this site to figure out how to properly hyperlink. All I have been able to do so far from poking around briefly today is clicking the copy button on Arcanum, and clicking paste here. Don’t know yet if that works. I may test it by posting a random WoB at the end of my post to see if it still posts. Thanks for the advice!
@35 Artemis
I personally always took Lirin’s disapproval of Kal’s desire to be a soldier as wanting to spare his child that pain and hurt he saw in many a soldier’s eyes that he treated. He also saw it as a means to keep his son safe. He admits that war unfortunately is a fact of the current world, and that people ready to fight are needed, but he just didn’t want his own son to have to be one of them. I think we all when we look at a child of our own, or a child at all, we want to do all we can to protect and preserve them from the harshness of the world we ourselves have experienced. We can know its impossible to shield them from it all, but still want a better life for them all the same. So I took Lirin’s head bowing as him realizing its too late. His son now knows that pain, and he mourns the loss of that innocence he tried to preserve in Kal.
@36 Gaz
I like that thought. Dalinar has finally learned the pen is mightier than the sword, and has begun his training in said blade in full lol.
@37 Carl
Others have commented on this later, but I will add. At the time Dalinar proclaimed Amaram a radiant: 1. everyone thought Dalinar was insane and didn’t take it seriously and 2. Amaram didn’t demonstrate any abilities to back it up. Kaladin very clearly showed that radiants are most definitely a thing again, and did it to bring hope.
@40 sheiglagh
Now admittedly we can call Lirin into question since this is coming from him, but Lirin said to Kaladin that the gemstones was immaterial. They could have given it all back and Roshone would still have lashed out at them. And that was before his son died. Roshone was a highlord that was brought low and like a bully forced to sit with the “uncool kids”, he will do everything he can to pick a target and make their life a living hell. So I do not believe the money would have made a difference. The first words out of Roshone’s mouth when he arrived at the village was that Lirin was at fault for Roshone ending up there because he let Wistiow die. Money hadn’t even entered the picture yet. So I feel Roshone’s crosshairs were on Lirin from the word go no matter what Lirin did.
@42 Gaz
Good point. I too enjoyed the juxtaposition
@44 AeronaGreenjoy
I agree. One thing that really got on my nerves in the Warded Man series, was how a female character in the book was constantly lamenting and resentful that the main character didn’t return when she dreamed and waited for him. She was in an extremely bad situation, I in no way blame her for, but that her waiting for him became her defining feature really irked me. Love or Hate Laral, she got stuff done.
@46 Guncici
I agree :)
now for the WoB test……
test results……didn’t work lol. I will play around with it more
The only instances in the Cosmere where someone has picked up a Shard and lived (at least that we’ve seen “on screen”) occur on Scadrial. Kelsier, Vin, Rashek and Sazed were at the peak of their respective magic systems at the time they Ascended. Dalinar for all his powers is only 3\5ths as strong as he can possibly be.
Scath @50. I think if Odium is an unreliable narrator in his statements/thoughts about Dalinar Ascending, it is because Odium makes some faulty assumptions and/or misconstrues what he saw. I do not think he intentionally tried to mislead King T. I do not think that King T knows what Ascension means. Other than Mraize (if he is a native Rosharian), I do not think any of the Rosharians understand the macro workings of the Cosmere. I do not think they know that their are 16 holders of Shards of a great force known as Adonalsium and that the holder of each Shard is a god-like figure. If the Diagram mentions this concept, I do not think that King T has understood the significance. Certainly not the version of King T who met with Odium.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@51 Evilmonkey
Personally I disagree. Rashek in my opinion based on your definition, would be the peak of that magic system, while kelsier, vin, and sazed would each hold only half. But I think this portion is more subject to interpretation than anything that could be clinically quantified. So I guess agree to disagree
@52 AndrewHB
Personally considering who and what Odium/Rayse is, I would think he would know more of what he saw and comprehend it better than the majority of Roshar including Mraize.
Kelsier and Vin are full Mistborn. Allomancy is entirely of Preservation and they both only ever held Preservation’s Shard. Rashek and Sazed are full Ferruchemists. Feruchemy is net neutral Preservation and Ruin. Sazed currently holds both Shards and Rashek was unbalanced but still at the top by virtue of taking the power at the Well
I am definitely of two minds on Laral. I admire her grit but also feel her comment about Tien was pretty unlikeable.
That said, reading through all the comments helped clue me into some stuff I missed (or maybe just forgot), specifically the fact that the money was her inheritance. At first I had felt that Lirin hadn’t ‘really’ stolen the money since it had more or less been promised, but I don’t think I put together that it was promised on the condition that Kaladin and Laral would get married. That puts a whole new spin on things.
Lirin is another one of those characters that, while I really like him, has a few very unlikeable/rigid qualities. But such is life. :) I am glad they got a happy homecoming, even if I fear for Orodren’s fate!
@55 EvilMonkey
whiting out just about all of my post because it includes spoilers for Mistborn and Secret History and I am unsure the moderation rules regarding that
WoB state that a mistborn is not as invested as a radiant. If a mistborn can hold a shard based on investiture level, then so too can a radiant. WoB state whether the mistborn is actively burning metals affects how invested they are at that time. So does a mistborn have to pick up the shard only when they are burning metals in order to pick up one? Vin was not burning metals when she picked up the shard. Kelsier was a cognitive shadow when he picked up the shard. How invested does a deceased mistborn who can no longer burn metals count as? Rashek was only a feruchemist when he picked up the shard, but later was a mistborn and allomancer. So is he now 200% fully invested? My point is how do you measure it? Everywhere we have seen it is connection to a shard that determines being able to pick it up. Kelsier was an allomancer, which according to you links him to preservation, yet he was not able to pick up the shard till he used the IRE orb because he was very “ruinous” and seemed to serve ruin more. You could be right, I could be wrong. I could be right, you could be wrong. All I am saying is your theory is very hard to define with the information we have right now.
edit: after re-reading your post, I am a bit confused by what you mean by Rashek was unbalanced but the well helped fix that. Rashek using the Well was ascending. That is why he is a sliver. He held the power and then gave it up. It expanded him like a balloon. These are all examples Brandon gave when describing the process. So if Rashek was unbalanced prior to using the Well, then by your theory, he shouldn’t be able to take up the Well to begin with to fix the unbalance. That’s where my confusion comes in
edit2: so I was remembering an earlier WoB that this latest one debunks. Mistborn and Radiants are both equally invested because they pull from outside themselves. However my question regarding why Kelsier who is a mistborn, was not able to pick up Preservation till he used the IRE orb still stands. The correcting WoB now that I know how to link is shown below:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41-firefight-release-party/#e7222
I haven’t whited out the WoB, because I am concerned it will effect the hyperlink. end of whiteout
Carl @@@@@ 48
There is a WOB (here) that says that Kaladin means “born unto eternity.” Also, if you look at the Alethi Glyph illustration on Oathbringer page 519, “kalad” mean “eternity.” I think it is coincidence that Vasher’s name is also Kalad.
scath @@@@@ 50
I can see this interpretation, though Lirin’s response feels more like disappointment than empathy for what Kaladin has been through. He knows his son, he must know it has not been easy to see all of the suffering and death that war brings. Where is the compassion? I don’t feel any warmth for Kaladin coming from Lirin, the way I feel it from Hesina. He wants to help Kaladin by talking with Roshone about the slave situation, but there seems to be a distance in Lirin that wasn’t there before Kaladin left for the army.
Regarding the WOB links, if you click the “sharing” link in the upper right corner of the WOB, it will take you to a URL for that specific WOB post. The link will be in at the top of your browser window in the URL field. You can then copy and paste it into the TOR comment box.
56. Lisamarie – On Laral’s comments about Tien – I don’t think we can take any of Laral’s comments as being how she truly and completely feels. Laral is putting on her dutiful wife persona for Kaladin, both to protect him and herself. There is no way she can share her complete feelings with Kaladin.
It seems obvious to me that she is trying to avoid anything emotional when interacting with Kaladin. She does a great job of staying professional and politically correct in all her interactions with him. I actually give her a lot of credit for this. She is very strong, but it seems to be a very lonely situation to me.
@58 Artemis
Just want to say totally respect your interpretation, and me expanding on what I wrote is in no way saying my reading is the right one, or should be the only one. I feel that scene where he bows his head was him grieving. I feel the portions where he spoke to Kaladin was the frustration of a father warning a son not to stick his hand in the fire because he will get burned, but his son continually runs full tilt into it, and now the son shows up burnt to a crisp while saying “hey this is how it has to be”. Lirin’s mentality in my mind is “Well yes, anyone that runs full tilt into the fire is going to be burnt into a crisp, but I didn’t want you to be burnt to a crisp you stubborn knob!” lol. I admit I am painting Lirin in a rather positive light in this regard, and he can most definitely be seen otherwise. I just can’t help seeing him as a father that just wants his boy to be ok.
WoB test
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331-orem-signing/#e9438
wahoo it worked! I was clicking share, and then going to tor and hitting control+v, resulting in the entire WoB being hyperlinked and then not posting lol. This is much better. thank you!
@Scáth
Well it seems that your interpretation of Dalinar’s ascension is probably the right one if indeed all it takes for someone to pick up the Shard is someone whose personality/actions align with the Shard’s Intent plus some investment in the magic system. The true sticking point for me was Dalinar’s power level. Now the question becomes how does Dalinar become Honor’s new Vessel. How much more of Honor’s Investiture is required to make his ascendancy permanent? And can he pick up a couple more Shards and become Unity in truth?
@61 EvilMonkey
I totally see what you are saying, and the only thing I want to clarify is basically I am in total agreement with you, just was disagreeing on some of the terms, so if I repeat anything it is just to clear that up. So I feel bondsmiths independent and as they were originally, had nothing to do with forming perpendicularities. They did not have that power. So regardless at what oath they are at would not effect that whatsoever in my opinion. However, Dalinar is not a normal Bondsmith. He is bonded to the Stormfather. This by itself is not enough. However, the Stormfather is merged with the cognitive shadow of Honor. It is Dalinar’s bond with the cognitive shadow of Honor is what I feel is allowing him to form a perpendicularity. I feel as he swears more oaths, that will strengthen his bond with the Stormfather. By strengthening his bond with the Stormfather, he strengthens his connection and control over the link with the cognitive shadow of Honor. I feel it is through that strengthening of connection and control, that he will ultimately be able to ascend permanently as the shard Unity. But this is all my own interpretation on what we have seen. As I have said we do not have a clear answer from Brandon at this time. For now he has dodged it with RAFO. Hopefully that has cleared things up. I am with you! lol
Now whether or not he will combine with further shards. I do not have a personal opinion on this. I do not know. However, due to his connection to Cultivation and Odium, I do see that it is very possible.
Can someone please explain (or point to elsewhere) what is meant by Ascension? If it is gaining possession of a Shard, then how can it be temporary? Plus, I though we were told that Honor was not only dead, but the shard itself was shattered (a sliver remaining with the Stormfather). So, how much of a shard is needed actually gain possession (to the extent that no one else can do the same)?
Also, regarding perpendicularities, how are they formed? Are they tied to the shards that exist in a world? I’m confused a bit because there are two perpendicularities in Roshar, one in the Horneater peaks and one that moves around randomly (which is the one Jasnah used to get back). Would one be from Cultivation and the other from Honor (and, if so, where is the one for Odium)?
@49: I like your analysis of Laral. When I wrote my post, I toyed with how I would present the comparison with Shallan. I chose to broach the angle where Shallan’s life takes a very unexpected positive turn while Laral never gets the same opportunity.
I do agree she lost both of her parents at a very young age. She obviously has no friends. Being the only lighteyed within the village, she never had another young girl to befriend which is very unlike Shallan who, despite being sheltered, still had company. Can we try to imagine how lonely her life must have been once Kaladin left? And yet she did try to do her best.
It does seem she is playing at being the perfect wife for Roshone though, in her case, there is no “happily ever after”. There is no grand magical purpose nor opportunity to reforge herself. All she has is herself and I found it interesting to read, albeit brief.
Hence, in my post, I was trying to show how Laral had the life which might have been Shallan had she not bonded Pattern, had she not leave to be Jasnah’s ward, had not her life take a sharp turn.
So yeah, I read similarities in between both characters, but also differences. Perhaps Laral is made to mirror Shallan just like Moash mirrors Kaladin? Moash is Kaladin having taken the bad decision, but perhaps Laral is Shallan had she been able to face reality. Just a thought.
@63 RogerPavelie
So I will give the basics of it. There are a bunch of WoB, but a lot refer to mistborn which I don’t know if you have read and would contain a lot of spoilers. So Ascension is holding the power of a shard. You can keep it, you can give it up. No time limit. A full shardholder could give it up. It is debatable if that would kill some of our longer lived shardbearers. Actually I shouldn’t even use that term. I think the official term is vessel. If a person takes up the power of a shard, and then lets it go, they are referred to as a sliver. This is because the power has expanded them in ways not fully defined yet. Brandon used the example of blowing a balloon up and deflating it. The balloon goes back to its original size, but is stretched out and distorted. So that’s the bare bones on ascension
Now on to the Stormfather and Honor. A cognitive shadow is like petrified wood. Minerials take the place of the wood, and harden to rock. So too is a cognitive shadow with investiture. Investiture suffuses the soul/spiritweb, and imprints in the shape of the soul/spiritweb while the “actual” soul goes on to the beyond. In world philosophers debate this, but this is what Brandon has explained so far. So a cognitive shadow is for all intents and purposes, the same person that died, but at the same time isn’t. So the Stormfather and Tanavast’s (Honor’s) cognitive shadow merged. Tanavast is dead. The usual way to kill a vessel is to shatter the power. But that never destroys the power. So the power can still be put back together and picked up by someone else. Also just because there are splinters (pieces of investiture), does not automatically mean a shard is shattered. Shards can voluntarily make splinters of their power. That’s what spren are on Roshar. Voluntary splinters of power. Now as to “how much” of a shard is needed to gain possession, I am not sure. Brandon has said if you burn enough lerasium you would ascend. Dalinar accessing Honor’s cognitive shadow seems to be enough for him to temporarily ascend. As to a specific metric? I do not know
Perpendicularities are when investiture is concentrated enough in a place to create a “spike” piercing through all three realms bringing them together at that spot. Most instances of perpendicularities are shardpools. Not all but they tend to be. Elsecallers for instance make mini ones in order to teleport around. Yes there are two on Roshar. Yes one is Cultivation (horneater peaks), while the mobile one is Honor’s. I believe the prevailing theory is it is in the highstorm, though i’m not sure if that has been expressly confirmed.
I think I covered everything. Hopefully I did a good job and made sense. If I made any mistakes in information, please someone call me out. Love sharing info and increasing knowledge!
@65 Scath
The only things by Brandon I haven’t read are Wheel of Time and Snapshot, so Mistborn discussion is fine.
Thanks for the explanations. They help. Now…
Since Honor was killed and shattered, is it possible for more than one person to pick up pieces to put back together? Does it become infused into the world itself (giving everyone a piece of Honor, even affecting the Unmade)?
What is a shardpool? I haven’t seen that term before. Since Odium is trapped on Roshar, shouldn’t he have created a perpendicularity as well (or is preventing him from doing so part of the prison)?
Do we know if Dalinar actually created a new (if temporary) perpendicularity, or did he just anchor the existing Honor one temporarily in Thaylen City. The former seems like it would take a lot more power (or be a bigger ascension, if such a concept exists).
Why does some backcountry lighteyes have a spanreed going directly to the queen?
If the highstorms contain Honor’s perpendicularity what would explain how Stormlight appears in them. It is Investiture taken from another realm to Roshar. Normally the Stormfather controls it, but Dalinar managed to use his bond to do the same.
@66, RogerPavelle:
Short answer: No to both. BWS has made it clear that you have to gather most of a Shard to become its Vessel, and splinters/slivers are the remnants of Honor, not just everything that happens to be around.
Shardpools are “liquid Investiture”, as seen in Elantris (the pool that destroys Elantrians after the Reod), Mistborn (the Well of Ascension), and, of course on Roshar (the “Sea” of the Horneaters). It’s the manifestation of some major source of Investiture (generally seen so far as a Shard’s Investiture) in the form of a liquid. (There are also solid manifestations like lerasium and gaseous ones like the mists of Scadrial and the Stormlight of Roshar.)
Odium is trapped on Braise, not Roshar. He’s manifesting on Roshar but most of his Investiture is on Braise.
We do not know. However, keep in mind (as IIRC scath mentioned upthread) that all Elsecallers can create a small Perpendicularity at will. It may not be as big a deal as it seems. (They only enter Shadesmar, however–they have not as far as I know been shown to open a pathway to the Spiritual Realm.)
@67: Good question…. I recalled asking myself the very same question. Why would Navani be interested in speaking to Laral? How come she even knows of Laral?
@66 RogerPavelle and @68 Carl
I am combining my answers to the both of you in one because although there is a lot I agree with with Carl, there is like one or two things I have a different opinion on.
So first the question regarding can multiple people picking up honor. That I am not sure is such a clear cut no. Autonomy has numerous avatars which could be considered multiple people holding a shard. Now currently we have very little information on what the avatars are, how they function, and what they mean, so it could be a completely new and different mechanic that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not multiple people could hold a shard, or rejoin a shard. Or it could be a prime example of it. No clue at this point
Regarding infusing the world, the only similar instance we have seen of that happening sorta is Sel. The reason for that on Sel is that Odium shattered both shards, and then shoved the power that is normally in the spiritual realm (which is all places and all times at once), into the cognitive which is location dependent. That is why all the magics on that world work based on the geography and is “awakening” the land. Take that last part about awakening the land with a grain of salt, because that is on vague recollection of some WoB, so the terms or the thoughts behind it could be totally and completely wrong
Everything Carl said about shardpools are dead on. The only thing I would add, is they are also a form of perpendicularity. Since there is so much investiture in one place, it pierces the three realms, and that allows travel between them. That’s why shardpools are the typical form of travel between realms, although they are not the only one. Basically all shardpools are perpendicularities, but not all perpendicularities are shardpools.
Again agree with everything Carl said about Odium and Braise
Regarding Elsecallers, I personally feel they can do more than just go in and out of shadesmar, but I want to make it clear that is just my own thoughts rather than anything concrete supporting it. A lot of WoB say they use the cognitive realm. But there is also a WoB that says elsecallers work like oathgates. There is a recent WoB that he has explicitly said he has not canonized yet, where he wants the exodus from Ashyn to Roshar work like oathgates. He then mentions using the spiritual realm to accomplish this, but that it may create problems to work it that way. I wholly and completely accept my interpretation of those WoB is a stretch at this time. Just my own thoughts. I have included all the WoB I just referenced below:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e655
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1494
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176-oathbringer-chicago-signing/#e8448
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324-emerald-city-comic-con-2018/#e9307
Birgit @@@@@ 67, I’ve wondered the same think about the spanreed to the queen, then I remembered Roshone and Elhokar were once friends. Perhaps Roshone brought the spanreed with him when he came to Hearthstone, or perhaps Elhokar or Aesudan sent him one later. I doubt it has anything to do with Laral, except that she’s Roshone’s wife and can write.
@69 Gepeto
I don’t think Navani was interested in talking to Laral per se. She got a message saying Kaladin was on the other end and she wanted to talk to him, regardless of whom the intermediary was.
As for why Laral had one to Kholinar, I agree with Artemis’ reasoning.
@68, 70 Carl and Scath
Scadrial was the reason I thought about shattered shards infusing the world, since isn’t that pretty much what Preservation did there (infusing so much of his power into the creation of the world that he mostly became powerless when Ruin was released)? I was thinking that something similar might have happened with Honor.
I’m also confused now about Odium. If he’s imprisoned on a different world, how could Dalinar have freed him from Roshar (if Dalinar lost the challenge)?
Thanks again for all the information.
@73rogerpavelle
Doing this briefly from my phone so hopefully will cover everything. So ruin and preservation worked together to create scadriel and the people on it. When you said infuse I thought you meant in a different manner. So when a shard comes to a planet and sticks around, they can “invest” in the planet. That’s typically when a shard pool gets formed. I took what you said by infuse in the land differently. Shard power resides in the spiritual realm which is all time and all places. That’s why an allomancer can burn any metal on any other planet fine but an elantrian loses power the further away from their Homeland they go. Sorry if this stuff is sorta vague. I’ll try to explain better at a later date. But the other thing I wanted to cover quick is roshar. Roshar the name refers to roshar the continent, roshar the planet, and roshar the star system. So odium is in the rosharian planetary star system. He resides on braize and is locked there. He can however effect the other planets in the system as his power is in the spiritual realm so his minions can run around still powered by him. Hope I helped some with my drive by infoing lol
@73 RogerPavelle:
Mistborn spoilers whited out, as is apparently considered correct.
Preservation was not shattered (“splintered” is the term of art). The Vessel did end up dying, but the Shard was not damaged at any point. It was picked up by a new Vessel, Kelsier, who wasn’t good at it because his Intent was very different, but he managed to hold it until another Vessel, Vin, was available. She was much better at holding Preservation, but sacrificed her life using its power totally against its inherent Intent to destroy Ruin’s Vessel. Finally it was taken by Sazed, who also took up Ruin and merged them into Preservation.
He isn’t bound to Roshar, he’s bound by his oath, the Oathpact with Honor. The terms of the oath apparently let Honor release Rayse, and Rayse (who doesn’t, as he says, go by the literal words of oaths) interprets Dalinar as being Honor’s representative for this purpose.
@74 Scath
While I’ve read Arcanum Unbounded, I don’t own a copy yet, so didn’t realize Braize is in the same system. I’m not sure if that would have made a difference since I think of Roshar the continent and Roshar the planet as pretty much the same thing (understanding that there are parts of the planet not seen on the map). So, same system makes some sense.
And, now that you’ve explained the terminology, let me try to rephrase my question/thought. When Honor and Cultivation created Roshar (at least, I assume they did), they had to invest something of themselves in the world. When Honor was killed/shattered, would that investment have increased to include some of those shattered pieces (and, if not, where do they go)?
Next, I’m theorizing on what might have caused some of the Unmade to change. I understand that the Unmade were created as slivers of Odium, which makes them the equivalent of spren, right? Since the spren of Honor and Cultivation use stormlight (and the new spren of Odium seem to use the red light of the Everstorm), what do the Unmade use to survive (especially since the Everstorm is something new)? Wouldn’t their nature mean they can’t use stormlight naturally, and if they learned to use it, would that open them up to the influence of Honor and Cultivation? Or, can spren bond with other spren?
So couple of things. First honor and cultivation did not make roshar the planet. Adonalsium did. Honor and cultivation showed up later after the shattering of adonalsium. So the parshendi, highstorms, spren and ecology all predate honor and cultivation. Scadriel is semi unique. I’m not sure if it’s the only shardworld made after adonalsium was shattered but I believe it’s the only one we have seen so far. All others I believe were already made by adonalsium. Roshar I know for sure was made by adonalsium. So all honor and cultivation did was come by and set up shop on an ecology that already existed. By them sticking around, their “stuff” started to suffuse the planet and coloring it both honor and cultivation. That’s why all the knights radiant and their spren are of both honor and cultivation. It’s a spectrum. Syl would call herself the closest to honor while wyndle would call himself closest to cultivation but syl still has some cultivation and wyndle still has some honor. Other spren could argue that they are more honor than syl is or more cultivation than wyndle is. Power is never destroyed. It just takes different forms. So even though honor got shattered, all that power still exists. The power seeks sapience. If it can’t bond for it, it eventually becomes self aware. The stormfather is an example of this.
I believe voidbringers use voidlight. As to the unmade, I am not sure it functions the way you are saying but I’ll have to do some digging. On roshar spren is a catch all term for sapient investiture. They would call shards with a capital S like honor and cultivation spren. So that term on that planet is a little loose. As to spren bonding spren I do not believe that is possible. Spren are sapient I’m the cognitive realm but cannot remain so on the physical. By bonding with a human, they gain sapience in the physical realm by bonding the humans spirit web. Since spren are investiture, I’m not sure it could bond with itself technically and get the same result or bond with itself at all
Correction (I don’t want to edit something after it has been up for significant time): I meant “combined into Harmony” above, not Preservation.
As I mentioned in a previous thread, “spren” as a word seems to owe a lot to the Chinese shen, which can mean any supernatural being, god or “mere” spirits. It’s comparable to the Japanese word kami. Brandon has said that Roshar is very influenced by Taoist ideas.
@RogerPavelle: the Unmade, as the name suggests, seem to be “regular” spren that have been influenced by Odium, not Odium-splinters. It would make sense (at least to this reader) that someone as self-centered and selfish as Rayse would be reluctant to split off any of his own power and give it, pardon the expression, autonomy, and obviously Odium has not been splintered in the sense of broken into nothing but fragments.
@78 Carl
Yes odium is selfish and does not want to give up any of his power but to get free of roshar the planetary system he did voluntarily take some of his power and made the unmade. WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e9207
@Wetlandernw and Artemis
It’sso nice to be able to just post the link now. Thank you both for teaching me :)
Elle @21:
Yes, from everything that we have seen Wistiow was Lirin’s only friend in Hearthstone, so his death was a huge blow in many ways. Which really makes me wonder about Lirin’s family – wasn’t he supposed to be a native of this town? Why isn’t he related to anybody in it, then? Also, did Hesina have any friends at all? I don’t entirely know how to view her going along with and sacrificing everything in the name of Lirin’s ideals and wishes, to be honest.
RogerPavelle @22:
Sure, warlike Alethi sensibilities rubbing off on their parshmen must have played a role as well. By the same token, it was a good idea to prevent their civilian population from becoming a reserve for their excellent armies. We have seen how quickly Dalinar was able to recruit from among the civilians in his camp after he lost most of his soldiers at the Tower.
EvilMonkey @24:
I did not say that the Radiants had any choice about failing the Hearthstonians or that it was in any way their fault. They still couldn’t protect them, as Kaladin so rashly promised. Kaladin was indeed on a mission and couldn’t have removed his family immediately, regardless of Lirin’s feelings, which is why he didn’t argue much, but he did promise and fully intended to return to Heartstone after his task was completed. He even told Dalinar that he was going to before setting out for the Kholinar fiasco. Which is why I was surprised and disappointed when he didn’t do so after the Battle of Thaylenah. Admittedly, we may find out in Book 4 that he did so during the time-skip, but I would have liked to see it.
KiManiak @25:
I completely agree that Laral harboured some class/caste prejudices and wanted to remain a landowning lady, which is why she was really happy when Rillir appeared as an alternative marriage prospect.
Artemis @35:
Kaladin killed a number of people on-screen apart from Helaran during that battle and undoubtedly during previous battles as well. His squad defending themselves did involve killing the attacking opposition, though they usually didn’t seek to attack themselves. Unless Kal saw a likely lighteyes among the enemy, that is.
SCMof2814 @38:
And who is to say that he isn’t already around? I have my suspicions about Thaidakar, the so far elusive leader of Ghostbloods. Their methods seem… familiar. And, of course, it would be just like him to get into a feud with and try to have the wrong noble assassinated.
Sheighlagh @40:
Completely agree with you. I just find it odd that instead of bringing up her legitimate or irrational but understandable beefs with Lirin, Laral spoke about supposed disrespect towards Roshone. And could even all her beefs excuse her callousness towards Tien, her chidlhood friend, a sweet young boy who couldn’t hurt a cremling? I understand that she couldn’t stand up for him then, maybe didn’t even want to at the time (and it would have been human after the shock of Rillir’s death and Roshone undoubtedly telling her that Lirin purposefully let Rillir die) – but to still excuse it after all these years and with something so flimsy? I really like her otherwise, mind, which also contributed to my expectation that Kaladin would re-visit Hearthstone at the end of the book and my disappointment when it didn’t happen.
Oh, and BTW, I don’t believe that it is true in the absolute sense that Kaladin was the only possible marriage prospect for Laral. Wistiow must have had neighbors of comparable status, and some of them must have had youngsters of comparable age. Yes, there may have been a day or so of travel between their manors, but iRL landowners in similar circumstances would socialize anyway, visiting with each other for a few days/weeks, or meeting halfway. Not to mention that they would send their children for a “season” into a nearby bigger town, once they were old enough to look around for suitable spouses – though Laral was too young for something like that when her father died. It is just that Wistiow wasn’t interested in these things because he was content with his friendship with Lirin (and Hesina?) and had already promised Laral to Kaladin.
Soursavior @45:
If Hessina was related to a worldhopper, wouldn’t they have found a way to rescue Tien and Kaladin from Amaram’s army? Hessina was communicating with her family, after all, and they were sending supplies. Surely they were informed about what happened and if they could have done something, they would have or at least tried to.
Adjbaker @49:
Laral may have friends among her household. She may have befriended the pretty guard captain, for instance :D.
Artemis @58:
I don’t think that Vasher taking the name “Kalad” i.e. “Eternity” in Alethi was a coincidence at all, since he _had_ visited Roshar before coming to such prominence in Hallandren. He was just a somewhat pompous person when younger, I guess.
I agree with you re: Lirin’s disappointment in and distance from Kaladin. Lirin was a good father, mostly, but he was very invested in vicariously living through his eldest son, which makes it difficult for him to adjust to the reality of their differences.
Gepeto @64:
“Can we try to imagine how lonely her life must have been once Kaladin left?”
Surely you mean since Rillir died? Because Laral and Kaladin hadn’t interacted for 1.5 years or more by time he left, apart from that one brief meeting in the kitchen of the manor house. And she seemed very taken with Rillir then and not missing Kal at all. Nor do we have any reason to think that she doesn’t have friends among her household. Sure, marrying Roshone must have been hard, nobody disputes that, but she is not presented as a suffering waif and IMHO, she really likes being a light-eyed lady and managing her estate.
Nor do we have any reason to think that Shallan had it better with her murderous parents. At least with all of the people close to Laral who have died, she bears no blame for it, carries no guilt.So I can’t at all agree with the suggestion that Laral is somehow superior to Shallan in making lemonade when life served her lemons. She did well, very well, but what she had to deal with isn’t close to what Shallan had to face and overcome.
And if Shallan didn’t have Pattern, her life would have been so different, that it is difficult to even compare. Her family would have remained functional, Helaran likely would have stayed home, she would have probably been in an “attracting suitable suitors” or courtship phase – because as far as we have seen for most women in her class there is some choice – it is more like 18th -19th century than Ancient Rome. That is, before the Veden civil war broke out and likely killed her and her whole family. Ahem.
For some reason the board won’t post anything over 7K characters for me, even though 13K is supposed to be the limit, so double-posting to get all my scintillating thoughts out:
Carl @75:
No, the Oathpact was only between Honor and the Heralds and served to seal the Fused on Braize. Odium was trapped and imprisoned on Braize by the powers of Honor and Cultivation before that, though. This binding is separate from the Oathpact, but yes, Dalinar as Honor’s heir apparently has the power to release his part of it. What would happen to Cultivation’s contribution is unclear. Maybe it just isn’t strong enough to hold Odium on it’s own.
RogerPavelle:
In terms of how Odium and other shards manage to touch and affect places other than the worlds where they are based in physical realm, I found this WoB to be illuminating (Arcanum Unbound spoilers):
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315/#e9385
Basically, on any of the worlds created by Adonalsium pre-Shattering, all the 16 Shards have investiture of which they may be unaware. But once they become aware, they have a readily-made “backdoor” which lets them influence things, though not as much as resident Shard(s). Odium used this on Roshar to do more, to gradually seed his investiture in the form of the Unmade, etc. This was facilitated by him coming into Rosharan system in the physical realm, but then he was trapped on Braize, which allowed Honor and Cultivation to block him from interfering with Roshar the planet too much. However, subverting the Singers allowed him to circumvent his restrictions, somewhat. Etc.
This is also the reason why certain powers find Scadrial so threatening, IMHO, as it was created by Ruin and Preservation alone and doesn’t offer them the same opportunities to meddle.
@71: Interesting conclusions. I agree it seems possible this is the explanation we were looking for.
@80: Which friends did Laral have? Which other young women was she allowed to befriend? You speak of other members of her household, by this I am assuming you mean darkeyed servants? So while a friendship in between a lady and her household servants is not impossible per see, I would think the eye color barrier would prevent such a relationship to exist. Hence, considering Laral was the only lighteyed woman in Heartstone, I am inclined to believe she grew up friendless. Sure, there was Kaladin, a boy and later Rillir, another boy, but how about a friendship with another young girl she could share her secrets with? Even Shallan had some of this, even Shallan had female friends.
This being said, of course Shallan’s past was atrocious and worst than Laral, this is not even a matter of debate but, on the flip side, I am forced to admit Shallan’s present day and future are much brighter than Laral. Shallan suffered more, but she also had more positive things happening to her whereas Laral’s life is just… sad. Sure, she isn’t suffering, sure she seems relatively happy to manage her estate, but surely having lost the opportunity to if not find love, at least marry a young man which would be pleasant and young has gone and pass.
Arguably, Laral is a happier individual than Shallan now, despite the amazing opportunities which are now Shallan’s but, as a reader, I found her attitude next to her own hardships very interesting to read even if brief. Laral seemed to be naturally inclined to work for the best: she saw her childhood naivety crushed under circumstances, but she did not allow it to hold her back. In comparison, Shallan still refuses to move past her own childhood, still refuses to even try to face it, still lacks the will power to change her mindset, even if it would realistically take more than one trial, we still haven’t seen her actually try. Thus, after OB, I found myself being more drawn to characters such as Laral, who are less dramatic, but also more pro-active and who aren’t running away from themselves.
As for what Shallan’s life might have been has Pattern not chose her, I find it hard to decide considering we have no clue as to what the Davar family life looked like prior to mother trying to murder Shallan. I however can’t believe it was joyful nor can I believe Shallan’s life would have been better then the one she ends up getting in OB.
Maybe this is an incomplete comparison. The four genders reminds me a bit of C.S. Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” and how the author handles nakedness within the context of eternality devoid of any procreative sexual impulse. So there are still gender characteristics and general differences, but no particular worries about sex drive influencing how the different genders interact with one another. Incomplete from a world building perspective, but that was my initial thought when I read Syl’s lines here.
Kal needs to learn how to bring out the best in people who are not like him. He started out on the wrong foot/fist with Roshone. And the power imbalance that allows for him to improve without many of the normal repercussions that an action like that would normally generate in just about any context is a great example of how social class influences growth and success. Mistakes just don’t have the same impact on higher classes. So they can keep trying until they get it right. I wonder when Kal will learn some humility to better balance his pride (which he’s had from the beginning due to his intellect which was exacerbated by his near to bonded then fully bonded physical aptitude in battle), because I’m not convinced that his little moment with Syl here was anything approaching good insight. The thought to do better without an accompanying apology was far too simplistic and speaks to both their shortcomings. I suppose this is why I like Dalinar and his sons better than Kal. Not that I don’t like Kal, it’s just he’s not all that high up on my list of likable characters. Maybe Mara (Jade?) can help straigten him out.
And Stormlight/Investiture influencing the cognitive/spiritual properties of a person’s sense of self are a lot of fun to think through.
It reminds me a lot of how Tolkien handles magic in TLotR, especially relating to the Silmarils and the Rings of power. This is why I think DID is an incomplete explanation for Shallan’s state of mind and is likely why Kal’s depression keeps recurring. Although DID is definately a part of what is going on with Shallan, just like depression is a part of what’s going on with Kal. How we think about oursleves can influence our physical nature, much as our physical nature can influence how we think about ourselves. Which isn’t to say that it’s just that easy, to change how one thinks does not always mean he or she won’t ever get depressed again because there are plenty of external events that impact both physiology and an individual’s intrapersonal state. Especially after the first episode of any mental health condition.
But I do think Radiant’s have distinct advantages and disadvantages when it comes to mental and physical health. Kal’s dangerous slave scar is proof of that to me.
And let’s not forget that simplistic, purely physical understandings of mental health are not going to get us too far in the Cosmere where there is a clear spiritual component. I think that’s something the current field of psychiatry could learn a thing or two about. Especially with their recent dismissal of the multaxial framework. As if personality and all that it encompasses is a trivial matter when it comes to health and welfare. Ugh. Just ugh
To many: Re – why Laral has a spanreed connected to the Queen
I believe the spanreed is not connected to the Queen directly. It is connected to her network. Think of the spanreed calling a 1-800 number. Of course, the ratio here is 1:1 instead of 1 is to many IRL.
The reason why the ruling lighteyes like Laral’s family and perhaps all the ruling lighteyes have access to spanreed to the capital (Kholinar) is because they are the ruling class. They need access to their monarch. And since spanreed is the mode of communications, each house maintains a spanreed to the seat of the government.
Since the Queen is the de facto monarch with Elhokar being at the Shattered Plains, the spanreed points to the Queen’s domain. Chances are there is a big room with just spanreeds and clerks (women) whose jobs are just to take care of them. Dalinar has a spanreed room at the Shattered Plains. One of Adolin’s ex worked there. :-)
That said, it’s really not a mystery.
@83, CireNaes writes, “… The thought to do better without an accompanying apology was far too simplistic and speaks to both their shortcomings …”
Not sure what you mean. Kaladin did apologize to Roshone. (I seem to be noticing etymology all the time. Now I’m wondering if Roshone is named after Roshar.)
I’ll reread it again. Chagrin as opposed to sincerity is what I remembered.
@80 Isilel
The impression that I got is Lirin didn’t have any other friends since they were uneducated and felt looking into a person’s body was wrong and something reserved only for the Almighty. That was also coupled with only seeing Lirin when someone was hurt, and there being times that person would be lost leading to resentment :::cough::: Roshone :::cough cough:::::. I mean lets be honest, a mortician could be a perfectly lovely person, but there is still a level of uneasiness people have regarding the profession regardless how necessary it is. This sense of uneasiness would be amplified given the location, the belief system, and the ignorance of the local populace.
Personally I do not believe the “Alethi warlike sensibilities” rubbed off on the parshmen. I theorize that the Everstorm returned their Connection (with a capital C), which enabled them to bond spren once more and change forms. A by-product of this is the local parshmen becoming connected to the land they were residing in. Azish were very clerical, Thaylan were very naval, and Alethi were very warlike. But this goes further than the surface appearances of each culture. Venli comments in frustration on how a parshwoman would cover her face with embarrassment or blush, when she should attune to a new song. She was also frustrated how this parshwoman wore an alethi dress, and even covered her safehand. The implication is that the parshmen have completely taken on the mannerisms, speech patterns, and culture of the land they reside in. The extent of this does not sound to me as merely a people observing and picking up habits. This is an entire cultural shift, that is dramatically different from location to location. That is why my theory is connection and the everstorm play a part in this.
Could you provide references and WoB on the way you say the Oathpact and the binding of Odium specifically function? Some of what you say is news to me, so I would be interested to learn more if you could provide references.
@87, scath,
Um, scath? If you think about it, that’s how the Alethi learned those customs. That’s how all of us learned the customs of our societies.
Gepeto @82:
What female friends did Shallan have?! She was forbidden to socialize with servants, her tutors never stayed long, none of the family ardents was specifically singled out as a friend or a mentor in her recollections, her relationship with her step-mother was always strained and became only more so. Eylita was only a distant acquintance and their interactions were strictly in service of Balat’s needs.
Yes, she had her brothers – whom she had to constantly prop up and protect, all the while suffering from massive subconscious guilt, as well as guilt caused by Lin’s tactics of using other people as “whipping boys” whenever Shalln displeased him, and their anger at her “privileged” treatment.
Shallan refuses to face her past because of her sense of enormous guilt – Laral doesn’t have this burden, so of course it is easier for her to come to terms with her past. None of the misfortunes that had happened to her and those she cared about could be construed as her fault in any shape or form. Let’s also not forget that Laral is 2 or so years older than Shallan – she is Kaladin’s age, and had more time to outgrow her issues.
As to Shallan’s opportunities – didn’t she work to create most of them herself? If Laral had the same drive towards scholarship, might Wistiow not have made provisions towards her education, instead of earmarking her for marriage to Kaladin and intending to invest in his? Not to mention all the other stuff that Shallan risked and accomplished to get where she currently is.
Re: Shallan’s life without Pattern – IMHO there is every reason to think that it would have been happier, right until the Veden civil war broke out.
Make no mistake – I really like Laral and hope that we’ll see her again in the future, further growing into her leadership. And yes, she had a lot of grief to contend with, being married to Roshone wasn’t a picnic either, and I am hoping that she’ll be able to ditch him one way or another. But I see no reason to think that Laral would have done better in Shallan’s situation than Shallan herself did.
Scath @87:
Yes, Lirin had no friends for reasons you state. I wonder why he didn’t have any relatives, even though he was supposed to be a native of Hearthstone – it was the whole reason why he decided to settle down there with Hesina after spending his youth as a courier, and in such rural communities everybody is usually related to everybody else.
Re: Alethi parshmen being warlike, you are right that it is because of their Connection to Alethkar, I didn’t mean anything different. But by the same token, Alethi human civilians also have the same cultural potential, which is why it may have been important to the Fused to eliminate them as a manpower reservoir for the armies opposing them early on.
The Oathpact only being between Honor and the Heralds :
And here are a couple of earlier WoBs about it:
@88 Carl
Except from what I have read, the parshmen are not like us in learning customs. Shallan comments in Words of Radiance while with the slave caravan how people tend to give parshmen menial tasks that can be trained and require minimal oversight because they will essentially begin the task and not stop till told to. We see typical jobs of parshmen including rowing small boats, moving objects (books, boxes, etc), and hat weaving. We do not however see them sailing boats, navigating, or writing for instance. So then the next step is what they learned what they observed, but as we have seen with Sah, they are in a cloudy state. He says how he has watched the men play cards countless times but he still can’t remember the rules and struggles with the concept. Yet if this was true across the board, then why are there Azish parshmen writing legal dissertations on the unlawful use of their labor? Why are there parshmen that are able to full sail ships (and large complicated ones at that)? These things require an education or trained skill that they do not seem to have received to me. But this is still a theory so I am open to other possibilities.
@89 Isilel
True, though now as I think about it (this is going on recollection so take what I say with a grain of salt), Lirin did say his parents worked hard to raise them to the Nahn they were at. Seemed they were more focused on advancing their family, than growing a big one, so either could have had a small family as result with few connections that died away over time, or alienated themselves from the standard populace even before Lirin. Just spit balling some ideas
Sorry that I misunderstood your point regarding the parshmen.
Thanks for the WoB! :)
Carl@85
I reread it. Kal apologized to Roshone’s militia. Not to Roshone. I don’t think Roshone has become a good man and his order to attack Kal emphasizes this to a point, but Kal’s mother noticed he “isn’t as bad as he once was. I think he feels guilty.”
Kal had an opportunity to lead Roshone further along a path of improvement and he blew it. Kal’s “reflection” pep talk calling Roshone a “cheat, a rat, and a murderer.” while simultaneously calling for him “to stand up and lead these people.” was hardly inspiring. It was deflating.
Thank goodness the guy has Laral, who can repair the damage and continue leading and inspiring her husband towards a better way.
Here’s the passage with the apology, the only goal being to defuse the situation. It wasn’t done from genuine remorse, it was chagrin. Lots of pride there, the proverbial sword spin, shove it in the floor syndrome.
Re: Adolin’s relationships: same problem as me, except Shallan doesn’t exist in the real world :(
I found it interesting that Laral rebuked Kaladin for sticking his Shardblade through her wood floor but not for punching her husband. She didn’t even mention it.
This is my favorite chapter in the book, and my former self of two years ago detailed all the reasons above. However on my current reread the main thought that popped out at me was:
OMG Kaladin didn’t wash his hands before handing Lirin his surgical instruments!
Seriously, when was the last time he washed his hands? Urithiru, the Shattered Plains? It must be a sign of the times that this has perturbed me so much, lol.
Oh man, if anyone hasn’t listened to stormlights graphic audio, it’s SO good. The definitive version for the cosmere to me. Go on YouTube and listen to this scene, the music and voice acting for Kal here and when he gives the radiant reveal, SO epic. The best scenes in graphic audio though are still either stormfather revealing what happened to the Heralds to Dalinar, the siege of Kholinar, confronting Sadeas in WoK..there’s so many where the voice acting and music truly captured the moment and it’s the closest thing to a full live adaptation we have, it’s hard to go back to just the text, let alone regular dull audiobooks with one dude doing the whole cast haha.
(Especially with Lopen, Dalinar, Kelsier & Adolin, GA does them soooo goddamn well)